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Thread: Puppy question

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlie Wolf View Post
    Wow that's way out of line!

    I think the most important thing IS consistency. Hands down. No ifs, ands or buts. Without you being consistent within your own home it doesn't matter how much another person charges you to train your dog.

    What an adorable puppy does at 10 lbs is NOT adorable at 66 lbs. Remember that. Bad habits are learned very rapidly, as are good ones. Which 66 lb dog do you want to live with for the rest of your mutual lives?

    Save your ohs and ahs for when your puppy is doing acceptable behavior, not at other times. Develop your "my house, my rules" tone of voice. It does not have to be long and winded. The shorter the better, simple NO , ACH's, work wonderfully well. If you can practice your "withering look" at the same time, all the better. If your puppy is doing unwanted behavior he is pick up and removed. He is ignored, he'll learn fast that if he wants your attention he displays acceptable behaviors. No tickey, no shirty.

    If your puppy is not behaving well, as he should be no matter how young he is, it is not cute. Call it by it's true name.. unacceptable behavior. Remove him to his crate for a time out (along with a firm NO or Ach). That crate will cost a lot less then a trainer and probably do more. (this btw also works miraculously for potty training) Your puppy will be less confused and more ready to please you. It's bad enough when your puppy breaks the rules.....even worse when you do :-)

    I would think it shouldn't take you more than three days to teach your puppy a lesson that he needs to learn. I would start with behaviors not "tricks". An example. Your house is not his giant toy box. He has his own toys that are acceptable to chew on. Decide which behavior you need to teach. Only do that one for about three days. Example: he's decided your dining room chair is his new chew toy. Every time he chooses something unacceptable to chew on, pick him up with a disapproving no and move him away. (You can gasp but don't smile). Bring him to one of his toys. If he goes back to the chair, repeat. If he does it again then next time you pick him up, say no, pick up the toy and put both in the crate and walk away. He's in time out, you have nothing more to say to him and I'd keep him there for at least 15 minutes, more if he's decided to throw a temper tantrum. It also teaches you that you do not have to actually be angry but you do have to be consistent or you will not be successful. It will soon become a routine for you and you'll find it takes little thought.

    You are not being cruel. You will find that you are actually teaching him more then one lesson. He is learning that he is a member of your family. Even that first lesson teaches basic family dynamics and he will learn each new lesson more rapidly.

    You can do this Carol. Tough love is not abusive it's just very very consistent in the beginning, no short cuts around that for success and a well rounded pet that everyone, including you, will love.

    What are the three behaviors your puppy is doing currently, order by priority to cure?
    There are two sets of things.
    1. Nipping & getting over excited (toy direct isn't working) If I sit down on the floor to pet or play with him the teeth come out. I'm not
    sure how to engage/bond/play with him.
    2. Pulling on the leash (I am doing the stop & walk backwards with little luck) (the vet mentioned a harness) and dropping down on the
    ground when we are trying to go potty (he's to heavy to pick up & I don't want to drag him across the ground)


    The other things: I'm not sure how much to leave him in the crate.
    If he's potty training by being in the crate how will he tell me he has to go out. So far we've been lucky but it's
    because I'm constantly taking him out.

    Thank you all for your advice & any more words will be very welcome.




  2. #22
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Carol, I have trained dogs my whole life, starting in childhood with my own cocker spaniel, then helping my uncle train gun dogs out in the field as puppies (it was his business to train English springers and German short hair pointers for hunters), and then working with the German Shepherd guard dog my uncle got for my Grandma after Grandpa was thrown out of the house but couldn't stay away. That dog only knew German. I've helped others socialize and start training their rescues, and I walk and do some initial training at the county kennel for the rescues there until they are rehomed. Those fees are outrageous and I would never pay it. There should be other options that are more reasonable. Try googling kennel clubs for your area or dog clubs in general. Often they sponsor group classes and are reasonable. As oldsewer said, it should be once a week class with clear, written homework. Or maybe the humane society or your own county kennel can put you in touch with reasonable classes. Around here there are also classes offered through the Adult Education programs that high schools have. Their flyer should have some basic classes to get you started.

    Your biggest and most important problem to solve right now is who is the boss. I am not talking about the dog. I am talking about your husband's misbehavior and sabotage of the puppy. You two are confusing him, and I see a divorce coming in which you must choose who goes, the dog or the husband. Tell him this crystal clear.

    I also do not recommend board and train situations unless I know a lot about the trainer. There is one near me, for example, but I have known her for around 10 years, and she is exemplary. There are too many horror stories of cruel methods, negative methods, punishments, etc. I wouldn't do it.

    You can do this! It's so much fun, and your relationship with the puppy will build on itself once he understands how great and fun it is to please you. His goal will be to please you. You must start with the basics only and work on one thing at a time. He is a baby, so don't overwhelm him. Did you try to learn calculus before you knew the multiplication tables? Of course not.

    With my current dog Tucker, who was a rescue from the county kennel and so afraid, traumatized, and literally wounded after he was attacked on the streets, on the advice of my trainer friend I used clicker training to take it slow and only be positive. What a fun way to train a dog! It took the praise and food reward based method I knew and took it to the next level. Believe me, in one day the pup will understand that when he hears that clicker, something good is coming.

    Here is a brief article on the method that will help you decide if you want to pursue it.

    https://clickertraining.com/15tips

    I started with Karen Pryor's book, "Getting Started with Clicker Training". It's on amazon as an ebook, too. There are also Karen Pryor certified trainers all over the US, so that might be around you. I think I've seen a youtube channel that uses her methods too. I'll try to find that guy and post it. It really helps to see him in action, his words, his motions.

    Good luck! Work on the basics on your own until you find a puppy class for socialization and to teach him to focus on you and not the other dogs.

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  4. #23
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    I have always trained ours....except for Oscar the wiener dog who refused to be trained.

    When Yoda gets fed, he has to sit and look at us before he is permitted to eat. When he goes outside and back in, he has to sit and look at us before he is allowed back in the house. They really like to work for reward, which can be a small snack or praise and petting. He also has to sit to be petted and he is not supposed to jump up on people, but some people let him get away with it even when we tell them he is not to do that. You can't train everyone!

    Your puppy is still young. Keep at it and you will be happy together. The group puppy/obedience classes are not that hard. You work with the dogs there, usually a group of eight or ten and then have homework every week. We had a dog that would sit when you would stop walking with him, whether he was on a leash or not. He also sat at the corner and looked for cars before crossing!
    pat.

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    If you can't be nice.....BE QUIET!

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  6. #24
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Here are two good youtube channels that show clicker training and are really helpful I think. One is Zak George's Dog Training Revolution, and the other is Training Positive. They show you exactly what to do and there are lots of separate videos for specific issues like pulling. BTW, if he is pulling, do you have a harness for him or are you using a collar and leash? The right harness will help immensely and lead him to the correct position.

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  8. #25
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    TMP, I'm so sorry you are having to go through all this mess with Sandy on top of losing your husband. Labs as a breed are high energy dogs; high work drive, high play drive. The root problem with her currently may be a severe lack of exercise. It is difficult for most people to provide that much exercise, to give them a chance to "burn off some steam", and you certainly cannot at this time since you cannot control her. Is there a teenager in your neighborhood? Someone who can RUN with her and let her really stretch? I understand how difficult it would be to consider re-homing her with all the emotions swirling around her, but if I may be blunt, this does not sound like a healthy situation for you. If there is no one you would trust to help with her, this might be a situation where sending her to a trainer's kennel might be an alternative worth considering. Yes, she will eventually calm down, but she will still not be trained in "living in peace with people" which is what obedience training is all about. The advice given above is relevant to you also; reach out to trainers, the breeder where you got her, your vet, local 4-H club, anyone and everyone who might be able to help you connect to the resources you need to address this problematic situation. You should be able to do all the initial leg work by phone. And please, no guilt feelings for having an unmanageable dog! Many of them are a handful in the best of circumstances! I hope I'm not hurting your feelings or being offensive to your very difficult situation, you have my sympathy and best wishes for a better tomorrow. Sharon

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  10. #26
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlie Wolf View Post
    Wow that's way out of line!

    I think the most important thing IS consistency. Hands down. No ifs, ands or buts. Without you being consistent within your own home it doesn't matter how much another person charges you to train your dog.

    What an adorable puppy does at 10 lbs is NOT adorable at 66 lbs. Remember that. Bad habits are learned very rapidly, as are good ones. Which 66 lb dog do you want to live with for the rest of your mutual lives?

    Save your ohs and ahs for when your puppy is doing acceptable behavior, not at other times. Develop your "my house, my rules" tone of voice. It does not have to be long and winded. The shorter the better, simple NO , ACH's, work wonderfully well. If you can practice your "withering look" at the same time, all the better. If your puppy is doing unwanted behavior he is pick up and removed. He is ignored, he'll learn fast that if he wants your attention he displays acceptable behaviors. No tickey, no shirty.

    If your puppy is not behaving well, as he should be no matter how young he is, it is not cute. Call it by it's true name.. unacceptable behavior. Remove him to his crate for a time out (along with a firm NO or Ach). That crate will cost a lot less then a trainer and probably do more. (this btw also works miraculously for potty training) Your puppy will be less confused and more ready to please you. It's bad enough when your puppy breaks the rules.....even worse when you do :-)

    I would think it shouldn't take you more than three days to teach your puppy a lesson that he needs to learn. I would start with behaviors not "tricks". An example. Your house is not his giant toy box. He has his own toys that are acceptable to chew on. Decide which behavior you need to teach. Only do that one for about three days. Example: he's decided your dining room chair is his new chew toy. Every time he chooses something unacceptable to chew on, pick him up with a disapproving no and move him away. (You can gasp but don't smile). Bring him to one of his toys. If he goes back to the chair, repeat. If he does it again then next time you pick him up, say no, pick up the toy and put both in the crate and walk away. He's in time out, you have nothing more to say to him and I'd keep him there for at least 15 minutes, more if he's decided to throw a temper tantrum. It also teaches you that you do not have to actually be angry but you do have to be consistent or you will not be successful. It will soon become a routine for you and you'll find it takes little thought.

    You are not being cruel. You will find that you are actually teaching him more then one lesson. He is learning that he is a member of your family. Even that first lesson teaches basic family dynamics and he will learn each new lesson more rapidly.

    You can do this Carol. Tough love is not abusive it's just very very consistent in the beginning, no short cuts around that for success and a well rounded pet that everyone, including you, will love.

    What are the three behaviors your puppy is doing currently, order by priority to cure?
    1. Nipping. Jumping up & nipping at hands, coat, etc
    2. Pulling on leash & flopping down when out to potty
    3. Chasing the cat because he wants to play with her

    I think part of this is I can't get answers to my questions.
    At 4 months old will he spend most of the day in the crate to help with potty training & to keep him out of mischief?
    How will he connect going out to potty with letting me know. He doesn't do the usual circling, sniffing thing he just looks surprised as he pees.
    When I sit down on the floor to pet him & spend time with him he gets excited quickly & then becomes all teeth. How do I play/bond with him? Toy redirect isn't working.
    He goes in the crate to sleep at 10:30. At 6:30 am I have to drag him out to go pee. Should I add time to the morning or is that long enough for him to hold it. He's never gone in the crate & I don't want him to start now but a little more sleep would be nice.

    I am going to look into puppy classes and go by myself.

    Thanks for all the advice and more is definitely appreciated.




  11. #27
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Carol, with the potty training. I found that when you first wake up (naturally they do too), I'd take him out of the crate and bring him outside immediately. That took care of him holding it all night. The first time or two that he goes in the crate at night he will probably pee in there however they don't like that so they learn to hold it. It's like giving a bottle to a baby, the first few nights you may have to get up in the middle of the night to let them out. They do learn very rapidly to hold it. Granted for this period of time, if you're use to sleeping in till nine you may have to plan on getting up at 6 or 7 for a while. I usually didn't go to bed until around 11:30-12 at night so we're talking them getting use to holding it for about 6-7 hrs. Eventually they will not have to be crated at night. And don't forget that he goes out right before you put him to bed for the night.

    They will also do their business about 5 to 15 minutes after they eat, almost without fail. They will also do it after heavy play. So toward the end of the play period you need to start watching. After a while you'll start noticing a change in how they are moving . So if it's done just before bed, as soon as you get up, right after every meal and right after play you accomplished half the battle. While Carlie has her food down free choice now, when she was a puppy she was fed 3x a day for about 15 minutes at a time. I was able to control her behavior that way and she learned very rapidly. I don't think she made more than two mistakes in the house after I started training. Except for the first two dogs I had none of them made more then two mistakes actually. Granted there are some breeds of dogs that are more difficult to potty train but a dobie isn't one. Ohhhh, I forgot. It's also important to take them out immediately after they take a nap. If you stand there while they do it outside then that is a good time to immediately give them a treat and say good boy.

    I forget how old your dog is now. But I'd say the other behaviors would need a little more work then walking on a leash. That could maybe be just a 15 minute session. Leash on = lesson time. Leash off - relaxation time. What worked best for me was to walk along on a short leash. Anytime puppy goes past your leg, make a left turn and walk in the other direction. You have to be prepared to do this or they can get ahead of you too fast and it won't work. (we're assuming puppy is on your left side). (You pivot on your left leg and the right leg turns across his path). They don't take it personally, they figure you are a very awkward person so they start paying more attention to not moving ahead of where your leg is. You should eventually be able speed up or slow down and they will stay right with you. (there is another trick you can do for dogs who chronically lag behind but I don't think that's your problem LOL). I also found that if I made sure to not anticipate her moving ahead but just randomly walked say 4 steps, rapidly turned, walked maybe 5 or 6 steps, rapidly turned, and repeated that with varying how many steps before the turn it worked well, she got the idea in no time. You're playing follow the leader with him and remembering you are the leader not him. Always stop after he had done it well, not after a correction. And a treat at the end of the lesson is good timing.

    The nipping I have to admit is a bit of a pain in the neck to teach but it's really just being constantly aware until they stop teething. I've seen people do different things for that. Some will just clip them under the chin each and every time they do it (not my favorite). I just constantly put my whole hand over her muzzle and held the muzzle firmly saying no. Moved my hand away and as soon as she did it again I grabbed her muzzle with my whole hand, pressed firmly and again said no. You can give him one of his chew toys in between. At any point that you get tired of the repeats, just pick him up and put him in his crate with the chew toy. This is one of the lessons that does tend to take repetition. It helps if you can give him aides that will numb his gums, i.e. ice and frozen twisted toys. I forgot, another thing that may work with this is if they keep going back to your hand then gently but firmly roll them on their back, hold their tummy firmly, make them stay that way until they stop wiggling. Mother dogs will do this to let their puppies know that "I'm the boss and you're the pin head". That works well when they are small and they are trying to bully you.

    Also re the potty training you're right you do have to take them out a lot in the beginning. After the first couple of days if they are constantly going in the crate it is that you're not in tune with puppy pee schedule. My dogs always were crated by my bed at night and I can be a light sleeper at those times so I was usually aware if they started rummaging around in the middle of the night. So out they'd go for a pee break. I didn't socialize with them then because I wanted them to go back to sleep and it was not then play time :-)
    Last edited by Carlie Wolf; March 17th, 2018 at 09:53 PM.

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  13. #28
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    Congratulations on your puppy. May I ask what breed or suspected breeds your puppy is? This can help tailor the training to best suit you and your dog. Did you just get him? Did he have any housetraining when you got him? Between 8-12 weeks I usually am taking out a new puppy about every 20-30 minutes or right after he eats right after he plays right after they wake up. Bladder control can take awhile with some puppies or they just don't have clear expectations of when its okay to go.

    In the house I never leave a new puppy loose in a room if I am not right next to them and often will keep them with me on a leash or tether. Routine Routine Routine. the more of a routine you can keep them on the easier it is for the puppy to have a clear idea on what you want. Consistency that's a tough one but its key to getting a well behaved dog. If you ask for a sit you want to make sure you have the time to get them into a sit. If you tell them sit but they don't and you get distracted. Then the puppy learns that sit does not mean sit at least not all the time. Find a puppy class one that is positive re-enforcement. I keep treats on me constantly with a new puppy to reinforce behaviors if they are ball crazy then the ball can be the reward. I mark all behavior with a happy yes word and then reinforce.

    Puppies have short attention spans I train in 5-15 minute increments 4-6 times a day. Nipping can be caused by lots of things. Stress of not knowing what they should be doing. Dogs offer behaviors looking for one that creates a rewarding behavior from you. Nipping due to teething Nipping due to over stimulation and over excitement or not getting enough mental and physical exercise. Training requires focus and training can help the brain get tired.

    I have raised a lot of puppies. I have been training weekly with a top level obedience trainer who is also a judge in tracking, herding rally and obedience and I am still learning lol. If my dogs are doing something wrong its always my fault. I did not used to think that way but this trainer has shown me why that's true. Dogs need clear and consistent rules to follow and they need to be shown what behaviors are acceptable and if something is not acceptable we need to train them something else to do instead. Something that we can reward and be excited about dogs love it when we are happy and excited with them and if they do something that earns that they will try again and again to get that reward.
    Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.

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  15. #29
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    My step daughter just got a puppy Sh*itsu (lol) Chihuahua. She is just using a pee pad. I told her that you have four kids a husband and you. You have to take her outside and get a routine going. A pee pad is not a good solution I told her. I'm going to have to save this thread to read over again, because I do miss having a dog around.



    Lorie

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  17. #30
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    Default Re: Puppy question

    I have had dogs my whole life. All kinds. All sizes. Several things have helped me.
    As soon as possible after getting a dog, I keep the dog with me at all times for two weeks. This seems to teach them their new world and who is in charge. Make it a happy experience with lots of praise when it is earned.
    Never reward bad behavior. Too often a dog is given a treat to get them to stop jumping on someone. This works for the first time or two, then teaches them that jumping on someone leads to a treat. It is better to catch them doing good and reward that. Do you like them to quietly sit by your side? Then make sure to have a few treats with you so that when they come and sit down by your side, you are ready with a reward. Are they acting hyper? Ask them to sit, lie down, or whatever you want then wait until they do that and reward them for following your orders. Rewards can be a small food treat or petting or even a chew toy.
    Are you still potty training? My veterinarian taught me that the smaller the dog, the more often they need to go out. In the beginning, it sometimes helps to take them out within 15 minutes of eating. Most of my dogs learned better if I had them use the same place each time.
    After she was trained, I had a Samoyed that was able to go outside, run 400 feet, (in our fenced yard), to her place, do her duty, then pick up one apple from the ground as her treat, (we had trees), and run back in. it still makes me giggle to remember that she would never touch her apple treat until after she did what she was supposed to do. When my dtr was just 2 years old, she could make that 70 pound Samoyed walk anywhere she wanted it to go.

    Lastly, I was able to teach one of my dogs to ring a bell near the door when it had to go outside.

    Lastly, Relax and enjoy your dogs. They seem to sense your emotions and act accordingly. Remember, they only act like a puppy for a short part of their lives.

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