Definition of Border

Daisy, you are sooo right, I learned English at school back in the seventies over the nine years I had 4 different teachers. The first two had both studied in Massachusetts.. (which was btw the first word ever we learned to spell in Englisch) everything was fine, we learned a lot and had fun (started to understand some of the music we loved so much).

Then came Mrs.Wissel.. well.. she tried to teach uns Oxford-English... THAT was disastrous. I never ever had worse marks in English. Then I learned, British and American English are two complete different languages ;)
I am really sorry. British English sounds so nice to me (Just went through the complete "Harry Potter"-Audiobooks read by Stephen Fry. delicious), but I am absolutely not able to speak it. I have no idea why, but my English sounds "Merrycan" too.

I could notice some differences in using the words too, but the grammar isn't so different I suppose ?

Daisy, why not be a little "snobby English woman"? that's not bad. I really like the British people, and this little "snobby" touch, is something typical british, it is, isn't it? I like that, and I like british humour too..
btw.. I've read a lot of your postings and I never would have guessed that you are dyslexic. You have my highest respect.

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Originally Posted by toggpine

Kerstin I love this! You have NO idea how many times I have thought the same thing!

It is not just you and your countrymen that have cornered the market on the lazy writing problem. You should see the stuff my sister has to sift through when grading high school papers. I would need a crate of red pencils to correct the students' work. She says that they are not allowed to use red pencils any longer, because it makes the kids feel like the didn't do well. Aaarrgggh! When you can't tell the difference between to, too, and two - YOU DID NOT DO WELL! By the way, the kids can't receive "F" grades on an assignment any longer. They get a "NQTY", Not Quite There Yet. How is that going to work for you in the corporate world?

My daughter is going to hate having me as her mother by the time she is done with school. That kind of work is NOT going to fly in my house.
OK! Off my soap box on that one!

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Amen to that...I did not let my kids slide and their papers were graded in RED (OMG)...but they are normal adults and can say thier alpahbet, count, read, write and spell!!!!

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Originally Posted by toggpine

Sadly, I don't think so.
What's going to happen when they walk out those high school doors and that's not how the real world works?

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In time it will become normal because that is what and how they have learned and it will be accepted.

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Originally Posted by KerriS

Well, there is something I really don't understand
My elder daughter spent her 11th year at Wolcott High school in Connecticut. She was mediocre in english before she went there, and not really much better in written english after she got back home. Of course her spoken english had really improved after that year.
In Wolcott however, she was the best in the year in her age group in english(!!).. she as a foreigner had the top marks. I just couldn't understand.
When I asked her, why she didn't get better marks in english back here, she told me, that none of her mistakes has ever been corrected by a teacher, neither in english nor in one of the other subjects. She asked her teachers to correct her mistakes, but she just got "no, no, it's all fine" as an answer.

Are orthographic and punctuation mistakes no longer corrected in high school? Or was it just politeness to a foreigner?

Please, don't get me wrong. I don't want to offend anyone or criticize the US-school system.. I'm just curious.

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Kerstin, I never taught in high school. I was a preschool teacher, elementary school teacher and college teacher. In elementary school, we sure did work on grammar. I don't know what is happening in high schools, but in college we are seeing students who are less well prepared than they should be to function on a college level. It is job security for me! I teach what is referred to as developmental classes, preparing the less well prepared for life at the college level.

My English as a Second language students often take English in their home countries. They do have familiarity with the language, but the discussion that we are having today about words that sound alike but are spelled differently and mean different things is something that is hard for them to master. All of those things people mentioned in the posts are hard for native speakers, as well as non-native speakers of English. One of my darling girls said to me, "Why do we have to learn this? People don't speak this way!" I told her, "Yes, I know they don't. But I am teaching you the right way to speak and write, and what you do with the knowledge is your own choice!"

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Originally Posted by toggpine

Sadly, I don't think so.
I haven't yet encountered the school system beyond Kindergarden with my own child, and they are pretty lax about correcting spelling and grammar at this point. They want the right sounds written down, so elefant is as good as elephant for now. It will be interesting to see how our school district does things.
In some of the bigger public school districts (like Sis's), it seems they are more worried about the kids self-esteem than preparing them to be successful. While we shouldn't crush their spirit, we also shouldn't allow an "Everything is fine. There are no mistakes." attitude either. What's going to happen when they walk out those high school doors and that's not how the real world works?
I don't know the specifics of your daughter's school in Connecticut, but it could have gone either way. How scary that the child who received English as a foreign language, was the top in her native speaking class! Yikes!

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Many times, our non-native speakers have a different attitude toward learning, because in many of their countries, it is not free education, and it is a privilege and a family honor to recieve an education. The motivation to learn is higher in our students who are not American born. I'm sure many families culture the esteem for education in our country, but many do not see the value, and the kids pick up on that family attitude.

Occasionally, I've had native speakers placed in my ESL grammar or note-taking classes. They somehow got placed in the class as a way to get credits without working hard. They often did poorly because they refused to work. It is such a waste.

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Originally Posted by cyndiofthevortex

The only problem I struggle with is when to use "lie" or "lay." Anyone want to explain that one to me?

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Oh my gosh, do I have a story to go with this question!

A man taught his watch dog proper use of the words lay and lie. You lie down yourself, but you lay down an object.

So he taught the dog this--when someone tells you to lie down, you lie down. When someone tells you to lay down, you attack them and chase them away!

Why? Because the owner knew proper English, and would tell the dog what to do by using the correct word, telling him to lie down and he would do that. A burgler would use the incorrect version, and tell the dog to lay down, giving the dog the command to attack!

Brilliant, isn't it?

I only wanted to define border, and look, we have an international discussion of the merits of various educational systems going on here! What a riot! Hope I didn't raise a hornet's nest about the use of English!

We all have our chinks in the armour of using the proper words, spellings and usages. Nobody is trying to correct anyone's English, and nobody's English is offending anyone! We all have the best intentions and just want to talk to other quilters, no matter who youse are!

That has been annoying me as well. I made allowances for people not in this country, knowing that many spell with extra vowels (colour as opposed to color) so I thought maybe boarder was correct for them. I just shook my head at the Americans that spelled it wrong.

Another one that I see used wrong in quilting terms is salvage. It should be selvege or selvedge. Salvage means to recover something. The quilting term is the edge of the fabric.

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Originally Posted by K. McEuen

That has been annoying me as well. I made allowances for people not in this country, knowing that many spell with extra vowels (colour as opposed to color) so I thought maybe boarder was correct for them. I just shook my head at the Americans that spelled it wrong.

Another one that I see used wrong in quilting terms is salvage. It should be selvege or selvedge. Salvage means to recover something. The quilting term is the edge of the fabric.

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We are airing out all the pet peeves today!

well if we are going to air our gripes-mine is saying "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less"
(My Dh is the biggest offender so I keep my mouth shut but it grates on me every time)